sirvalence: Rob Donoghue on RPGs

Carl Klutzke (

sirvalence) wrote,
@ 2008-03-11 08:15:00

Rob Donoghue on RPGs
I just read this on

rob_donoghue's LJ, and it really struck a chord:

See, my my definition, a roleplaying game is defined by the choices I have as a player. If those choices are limited to a fixed set of options, it may be a game, but it is not an RPG. If, on the other hand, they are unlimited (or at least unlimited within setting logic - I'm ok that I can't choose to sprout wings and fly) then we're probably talking an RPG. In an RPG, I can declare I'm doing anything, and expect that the rules will find a way to express that. In a game, I can only declare those actions the rules stipulate.

See, there may be arguments about what is roleplaying and what isn't roleplaying, whether story is important or not, etc., but this for me gets to the heart of it: in an RPG, I can do whatever I want. I don't select my actions from a list or menu, I can try whatever comes to mind. Why is this important? Because this, for me ( your mileage may vary) is why RPGs are fun. It's why I made a totally freeform RPG and avoid ones that are rules-heavy. It's why I might enjoy computer RPGs but am never satisfied by them. I want total freedom of interactivity, bounded only by the simulated situation instead of by the rules.

I'm so glad to have understanding of this.

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erichris
2008-03-11 01:41 pm UTC (link)

I agree with you completely here. I have been disliking rules-heavy systems more and more as time has gone on, and am really not having as much fun as I used to with D&D now that there are a billion Feats that can tweak characters out... when you have to call them a "build" and worry about optimization, it's no longer role playing, it is a strategy game.

The things I've heard about D&D 4e has been disturbing, it sounds like although a design goal is to simplify, the changes I've heard sound more and more video-game-like.

This weekend while playing D&D 3.5e, I got frustrated with all the rules arguments and such that went on. It's not the first time I've done so. Every session is more about rules than the story. I need to do something different, but my group is very much stuck on D&D, so I am not sure what to do.

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yekrats
2008-03-11 08:40 pm UTC (link)

The solution: "Hey guys, a good friend of mine has this terrific new RPG system he's designed..."

0 :-)

Seriously, if they'd be interested in some straight swords & sorcery campaign, StoryCards will support that very well. (However, if you have any "munchkins" in the crowd, they might be a bit disappointed because they won't be able to minimax much.) If they would like a "demo" to see how cool StoryCards is, we can set them up! If they set up characters with StoryCards, I'm sure they will want to play them... judging from my own experience... ;-)

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	sirvalence 2008-03-11 10:37 pm UTC (link)
	I think I know who he's playing with, and at least a couple of them participated in some of the earliest StoryCards playtests already. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sirvalence
2008-03-11 11:10 pm UTC (link)

Every session is more about rules than the story.

That sounds pretty frustrating. It's interesting that you should put it this way though, because up until I wrote this post, I would have totally agreed with you. I thought the story was what I was really looking for in a roleplaying experience. Now I don't think so. I think I'm really looking for the opportunity to pretend to be someone else who can do interesting things in interesting situations. It may make an interesting story in retrospect, but that's incidental. What's fun to me is _doing stuff_. And that's why I don't like rules arguments, because they get in the way of doing stuff.

But this is my opinion. Other people get different things out of the RPG experience, and that's great.

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	arenson9 2008-03-19 12:18 am UTC (link)
	Very interesting. I think 'doing stuff' captures the overlap between 'Method Actor' and 'Power gamer' that seems to describe me using Robin's Laws. (Reply to this)(Parent)

blackbear88
2008-03-11 10:04 pm UTC (link)

I'm totally down with what you (and he) are saying here. I honestly don't think rules-heavy games are incompatible with this concept, though! Storycards is a great freeform system; but don't you think that any game system can be equally freeform if the person running it is able to adapt rules to situations?

My players can describe to me some totally insane thing they want to try doing--jump off the cliff, flip around in midair, land on the back of the monster while making a witty retort and then use its flailing tentacles to vault to the ground and attack it. That's a jump roll, a DEX x 5 roll, an idea roll (for a suitable retort, if they can't come up with one) and then a Fist attack to grab a tentacle and another DEX roll to hit the ground and spike the landing. Sure, they could miss any one of these rolls--life seldom goes as planned, and an even more interesting situation may result from a failure part way down the line. But the rules in any good RPG should never say "the player CAN'T do X." You should be free to do anything you want, whether it's a very freeform system like storycards or a highly structured system like, say, ICE's Rolemaster.

They're not mutually exclusive, is all I'm sayin'. :)

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sirvalence
2008-03-11 10:36 pm UTC (link)

Oh, I completely agree. It mostly depends upon the GM, and how holy the GM thinks the rules are. (I have had a GM say before "You can't bash someone with your shield: there's no rule for that." And he _designed_ the rules.) But part of the problem with having a rules-heavy system is that you can spend too much time trying to figure out which rules apply instead of figuring out what your next action is. I believe at their heart all roleplaying systems are pretty arbitrary, they just look like they aren't because they've pre-arbitrated everything. I'd rather have a set of general guidelines to extrapolate from on a case-by-case basis, because when it comes right down to it, every situation is different and requires arbitration anyway.

That having been said, StoryCards is sometimes more rules-light than even I am totally comfortable with. Skills in particular can be pretty easily abused. It's a balancing act, getting the right amount of rules in place, and I'm sure the balancing point is different for different people.

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mazlynn
2008-03-12 02:29 am UTC (link)

On the other hand, a rules heavy system can inspire some pretty creative "ooh, I want to try doing *this*" characters as well. Like my husband who played a dual shield wielding character in one D&D campaign because he stumbled across an amusing combination in the rules on shield bashing and wanted to run with the idea. Much of it depends on the play group. The group I currently play with has a lot of min/maxers, so playing a silly character with a cool concept that might not work well means you tend to get left behind in that party. But if everyone is just having fun with trying to come up with cool things that they can do with their characters, it can work just as well in a rules heavy system.

Playing creatively in a rules heavy system is kind of like writing a sonnet in iambic pentameter. Some people find it overly confining, others find that having to work within the "rules" of the situation leads to even greater creativity. It all depends on the personality of the writer, or in this case the GM and the players. :)

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	sirvalence 2008-03-12 09:23 am UTC (link)
	That's another excellent point. I pondered something akin to this last night--the acknowledgment that perhaps having more rules about what characters can do leading to more opportunities for interesting actions--but couldn't wrap my brain around how to express it. I think you just did it eloquently. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	arenson9 2008-03-19 12:21 am UTC (link)
	I also think there's a case for lots of rules helping one come up with ideas. If _anything_ is possible, I sometimes find myself stuck on where to start. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sirvalence
2008-03-19 09:28 am UTC (link)

I think that's precisely where having a card reading helps StoryCards players develop characters. But I hadn't thought about it in the context of player actions during the course of play. The trick seems to be to have a set of rules that somehow categorize every possible action into just a few mechanical options. But I do want to have the "color" of my actions--the descriptions of how they are performed instead of just what mechanism they are--to matter, otherwise I can probably just play on a computer. I need to experiment with more RPGs, because I know some of them do this. (I'm pretty sure Feng Shui is one of them.)

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